did i hurt your feelings?
nubian on Jul 5th 2006
gosh. i seem to upset white folks on the daily.
this is from nio’s blog:
blac (k) academic’s post was on her deliberate exclusion of some. And this is the exact problem of the feminist movement and why not much has been done over the last decade. Why we’ve lost rights once gained. Every group, it seems, wants to self-isolate, to hear only the voices of those with the same economic background, same musical tastes, same religion, same skin color, same sexual orientation. Groups don’t want voices different from them because the said persyn is immediatly looked upon with suspicion. ‘She’s here to take over!” is the cry. And someone gets up and is rude to said persyn.
When did it become ok to be rude and hurtful? When did it become ok to deliberatley exclude someone based on their race, sexual orientation, class, or educational level?
nio, my dear, have you been living under a rock for the past, i don’t know, 5, 10, maybe 15 years? are you too blind with white privilege to understand that not every movement is based on the inclusion of whites? or did you forget, that hey, this whole damn world is controlled by your peoplewhite men and women and they exclude US on a daily basis–jobs, healthcare, civil rights, food, clothing, shelter; i could go on and on and on.
obviously, you do not realize that white feminists control the idea of feminism and it is VERY important for those of us who are not white, to create our OWN spaces absent of white women. why does this bother you so much? how is it being rude? what is rude, is when white feminists, such as yourself, take offense to the ideas of any feminism that doesn’t support your white upper-middle class values and your fight against, The Patriarchy™. what is rude, is when white feminists think they are the voice of authority and everything they say or do is the act of a “true” feminist and what WE say or do, isn’t really feminist because we didn’t focus on the experiences of white women. what is rude is when white women feel the need to include themselves in spaces designed specifically for women of color because they think that no true liberation can occur without some melanin-free bodies in the mix.
I would’ve like to have gone to the conference blac(k) academic attended. But I can see by her post that I would have been vilified for caring, for wanting to change the world for better, for going in the first place. It’s too bad she and I will never be able to work together as she won’t allow me too access her knowledge and connections. The equality movement, and us as individuals, will be the ones who suffer. Now both of us will be doing the same work twice, reinventing the wheel each time instead of working cooperately. And with an undercurrent of hate and shame, of which she seems proud.
nio, how can you make such claims about my character, when you have obviously misinterpreted everything i have written about in my blog? that woman who asked how do we not exclude whites from people of color spaces, deserved to be called out and deserved to be told that her statement was offensive. we are sick and tired and have been for years, by white women playing the race card–yeah, i said it. white women playing the damn race card when it comes to issues that reflect the experiences of us in the margins, due to skin color or sexual preference. we don’t need you to speak for us or try to include us in your ideas of a feminist utopia, where race is transcended and we will all hold hands under the rainbow in the sky.
nio, please understand this because i will only state it once, i really don’t care to work with you or any other person who defines my perspectives as hateful and shameful and offensive to poor, defenseless white women like yourself. as i have stated before, i am used to white women feeling hurt and upset that i call myself a black feminist and not just a feminist. i am used to white women who feel excluded because i refuse to write about giving head, abortions, or if wondering whether or not to wear miniskirts is indeed, feminism. you and others like you, are the reason why the so-called feminist movement is in the toilet. if you were willing to step back, assess your privilege and understand the reasons why the universal feminist movement you are striving for has its barriers, then maybe that movement you envision could possibly work. until then, you will continue to feel neglected and you will continue to see women of color politics as hateful and shameful.
the really upsetting part about this, is that the posting by nio was linked in the (white) carnival of feminists. it is but a mere representation of the idea of feminism that permeates the blogosphere that i try so hard to stay far, far away from.
I recently wrote a post on my blog about your recent Allied Media post (the white woman in the audience who wanted to know what black women are doing to include white women in the movement) and had a lot of responses from people saying the exact thing–that the need for WOC space is exclusionary, that we all need to “work together” and not separate ourselves from each other, etc etc. As much as I patiently tried to explain that this is not the case some people just never got it.
Nubian, some people are never going to get it. They are always going to go with their feelings and stay there.
It’s a shame that Nio targeted you with her feelings. And I do agree with you — people of color need their own spaces. It’s not exclusionary, it’s a necessary (and good!) component of eliminating racism.
I just want to clarify one thing. You call Nio one of the white upper-middle class feminists, yet just above the space that you quote for this post, she clearly states she is not college-educated, and implies she is or has been poor.
Is there a chance that you each have been separately targeted and treated poorly in the feminist movement in your own ways, and that it might make more sense for you two to talk to each other about your hurts? Yes you still need your space, and yes she started it with her post, and no her own hurts shouldn’t excuse what she wrote. But when I read stuff like this, I can’t help but think, why are we women still doing this to each other?
Nubian - including that post in the carnival was not intended to upset / piss you off but give a rounded picture of what’s going on at the moment in the femosphere. What I wanted out of this carnival was to say right, this is what’s been happening since the last carnival, rather than impose my own slant as it were. So I included the post to give both sides. My personal opinions were largely kept seperate from the carnival I think.
I’ll be honest, I feel bad that it’s upset you. I had wanted to include the original post and make comment about it and had emailed for your permission, but obviously you want to keep out of it. And for what it’s worth, I do get why. But yes, the intention wasn’t to upset you, it was just to give an objective look at what people have been saying these past few weeks.
When I hear other white feminists going on about how *excluded* they feel, and how unfair it is and all, I have to wonder what their stance is on women-only space.
I mean, should we be letting men in during every single event or discussion we have, just so we aren’t “excluding” them and “not hearing their voices”? Or is it that sometimes–not *all* the time, but sometimes–women NEED space apart from men to discuss things amongst ourselves and work out how WE are affected and how WE feel.
Why the hell is it so hard to conceive that women of colour might feel something similar when it comes to having space apart from white people…even white women?
Crys T
You know, I was going to write something for my blog the other day about the whole fallacy of “reverse racism.” But when I googled around looking for a good basic introductory resource to link for my mostly white readers, I was horrified to discover how many forums and boards and communities and blogs there are out there that are devoted exclusively to policing the internet and other media in an attempt to expose and counter “reverse racism.”
And these aren’t KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, or even right wing Republican type white people. They’re mostly so-called liberals, and yes, even feminists, who claim to be “tired of the PC tyranny” and “unfairness to whites.”
After reading some of this ignorant shit, I was too depressed and sick at my stomach to write. Dear god, what an uphill battle. I find myself alternating between losing my temper and sinking into hopeless discouragement an awful lot lately.
It doesn’t offend me that you have WOC-only spaces. It might be useful to have one or two activities accessible to non-WOC who would like to learn: a panel open to the public, a film, a conference summary on the web (thx). But I just don’t see why people have the urge to stick their noses in other groups’ workshops-in-progress.
NancyP
I am really appreciating your blog, but since I notice we are so many who read you with pleasure and learn from you (partly with pain) I just haven’t bothered to write how intelligent, witty and enlightening I find your writing. Well, after reading that stupid and aggressive blog you just got adressed to you, I might at least pay for my reading with a thanks-comment: THANKS FOR WRITING.
I got attacked at my childrens’ school a few years back because I set up a poc young people’s caucus for all African heritage young people. (Granted I was white leading it but nobody else was doing this.)
I think it’s important to have subgroups be able to get together and have space to vent, create, etc in anyway they want to without having to deal with/take care of/explain to/etc to other subgroups, in this case the group in oppressor position …
I think you did right (not that you need me to approve
) to tell that white woman at the conference what you did. and like Kactus says it’s just hard for many white folks to get it.
Using the female only analogy might help some people to understand the need. But one thing that really helped me get it is by listening to black panels share what’s great about being black, what’s hard about being black and what they never again want to hear said by white people ever again … after listening to this for a few years many things began to click in this thick noggin …
(That in addition to co-counseling sessions on being white–after listening to them.)
Like, oh, maybe that’s why they want to have a group without me in it sometimes!!
If I was a rape survivor and wanted to process that I wouldn’t want to do so in a room with rape convicts sitting there too. I’d need to be away. I don’t know if that’s a good example but in a way it really is …
Peace Queen,
I was laughing at Nio’s post the entire time I read it. Her comments like “she (you) won’t allow me to access her knowledge and connections.(?)
Lets be for real Nio–Do you really want to? Why would you wait this long to try to access Blac(k) ademic connections until now? Weren’t you apart of the feminist movement before you read Blac(k) ademics post?
It amazes me that white people feel so excluded when we Black people want to have and keep some things to ourselves. However they have robbed and excluded us from our very own things for years.
Peace
—Sanaa
Apparently, no matter what, women of color’s actions and activities are supposed to revolve around soothing and comforting white women. Even the ones who think they are our feminist “sisters.”
*pulling out hair
*beating head on desk
i just don’t even know what to say right now. seriously, does this persyn think its exclusionary to have survivor-only spaces? how about wimmin-only spaces? am i being exclusionary when i ask for substance-free spaces cuz drugs are a trigger for me? AHH! when will we learn to listen?!?
and no offense, claire, but fuck giving equal time to both sides. both sides are not given equal time or weight. why do we always believe that when a womyn of color speaks, a white persyn must be given proper time to respond. sometimes we just need to shut the fuck up and listen. besides, there’s no such things as objectivity in media (and yes, blogs are media). ya gotta pick sides or else you’re on the side of the status quo. and the status quo hates wimmin of color.
Logically, it shouldn’t be hard to ‘get’ that POC’s might want to take a break from white culture/dialogue sometimes, but apparently it is. I think it’s about (a) guilt and wanting to be absolved, and (b) thinking in individual(ist) (and also selfish) terms, i.e. “but I’m not one of those white people, I want them to recognize that.”
Wow. I think clare made a major mistake with the whole editorial stance on the carnival. Not imposing a slant is not a neutral choice in a racist enviroment.
i wonder if it might be good to write (maybe just a one time carnival style thing) about separatisms and why spaces of protection and idenity are necessary and how we envision them. i’ll put a call out for entries soon…
Seems to me Clare was doing her best and if she made a mistake, so be it. Sly Civilian, I think that’s an awesome idea. I do think more attention needs to be on this topic and on better supporting it in the blogosphere.
Thank you for taking the time to address my post.
I prefer the notion that we have more in common as women but on a real level I know that is rarely true. The differences between our experiences are often radical but I do not think white feminists have experienced that for themselves.
I got to experience my own privelege rather dramatically when I transformed from scummy punk girl to upright, clean citizen. I am automatically assumed to be trustworthy and the right sort of person almost everywhere I go. I have witnessed women of color deal with situations that I have simply never had to manage.I do not think it is something that can be transcended because it is determined by how other people treat you.
I think because their experiences are limited white feminists just don’t understand, want to understand and hate it when you interfere with their learning process by excluding them. Demonstrating a lack of regard for other women’s wishes and a very self-centered approach to racial issues.
I am amazed at the degree to which people feel threatened by other people doing their thing. If someone like Nio wants to encourage dialogue between black feminists and white feminists, why doesn’t she set up a group to try to do that? Why feel that she has to hijack another group or complain about feeling excluded? I feel that way when you get men complaining in the ‘what about us’ vein on feminist blogs. Damn well take some action yourself and don’t expect other people with other concerns to change their world to suit you!
If more people listened and tried to understand, rather than waiting to jump in with their own personal concerns, the world would be a much better place…(I do this myself, but hopefully not in other people’s space).
Lets be for real Nio–Do you really want to? Why would you wait this long to try to access Blac(k) ademic connections until now? Weren’t you apart of the feminist movement before you read Blac(k) ademics post?
I don’t want to speak for Nio, but as a frequent reader of her blog, I’ve seen her complain for months/years that she can’t find a feminist group which tackles issues of concern to her. Nio expresses concern with issues of poverty and class, issues which have affected her personally, and she’s not interested in “mini-skirts” and “giving head”. She’s complained about those things repeatedly, and I’m sure she felt that in Blac(k) ademic’s posts, she’d finally found somewhat of a kindred feminist spirit. Sure, she could start a “white’s only” group to discuss poverty and class issues, and she’d be the only member in her community. What fun for her :p
I think it would be helpful if Nubian posted her gross income from her most recent tax return, so I could decide how qualified she is to speak on the issue of poverty.
Pips, I’ve been trying to talk to Nio about this, but apparently she’s one of those “if you’re a woman, you must identify as Only Woman and nothing at all else, or else you’re being divisive.”
And Vegankid, yep indeed, she claims that she would expect rape survivors to discuss their issues in front of men who have also been raped….claims that by doing so “they can all learn from each other.” No concept at all that maybe these women might feel, y’know, *unsafe* discussing such things in the presence of men.
And despite the fact that I’ve pointed out to her that WOC-only space is in no way the same as WOC-forever-and-ever-isolating-themselves-from-any-contact-with-white-feminists (though at this stage in the game, I can clearly see how some WOC might want that), she doesn’t get it. Any little bit of minority(of whatever sort)-only space is exactly the same as whites being racist, dontchaknow. No concept of how the power differential totally changes the context.
I feel like banging my head against the wall till it splits.
Crys T
I feel like banging my head against the wall till it splits.
I’d pay good money to see that.
anonymous,
are you that serious about nubian posting her creds, particularly her tax return, when you won’t even put your name up?
lol
at any rate, nubian, i want to rewind kamikaze’s comment and play it back, because it’s the truth…
if that was really nio posting up there, too, nuff respect for taking a listen… from the sounds of it (haven’t had a chance to check out your blog yet), you address some serious issues that don’t get treatment from the “mainstream” feminist movement…
there’s a strong kind of building that can happen here, as nio kind of pointed out with the reinventing the wheel thing…
but why can’t us white people be open to people of color instead of demanding everything the other way around?
we all need each other, but we all need to respect each other first…
prayers up to mutual respect, comm-unity, and forward motion…
Hi there,
This is just an idle thought that is a bit of a tangent, but in my years as an activist type person, I have never–and I mean NEVER–noticed a person of color to be rude/mean/exclusionary to a specific white person who was not being obnoxious but instead doing his/her best to be anti-racist. I just don’t notice POC activist being rude and mean to specific white people just because they’re white.
There’s a WORLD of difference between saying “white people often do this obnoxious racist thing and it makes me crazy with rage” and being rude to a specific person in a specific situation. (Although there are certainly people and situations that warrant rudeness–I’m not anti-rudeness by any means)
A lot of white people write as though POC activists were walking up to well-meaning white anti-racist activists and being all “You–you white person–get out! I hate you!” when in my experience (admittedly, it’s only one person talking here) I have been amazed by the general openness and friendliness of POC activists when talking to individual white folks, given how annoying white folks can be about race. (I suppose I should add that I am white) In general, I’ve noticed POC activists to tolerate a lot of stupidity, ignorance, silly questions, etc from white activists, provided that the white people in question were polite and sincere.
A lot of white folks get really into the persecuation fantasy thing: “Oh, I TRIED to work with those people, but they JUST WOULDN’T LET ME”, [sob].
Alternatively (and this is where I sometimes end up) anxious white folks get into the “I’ll say the wrong thing, and they probably already hate me, and what if I’m really a terrible person underneath and it just shows through, and then they’ll say I’m racist and I just made a MISTAKE” [wail, wail]…for me this has been (of course never now because I am perfect now…) an excuse to avoid situations that might make me uncomfortable (”well, I don’t need to do X because I will just make them uncomfortable with my ignorance”) and also a way of not taking responsibility for my problems (”I just can’t HELP it if I say something dumb, because I MEAN well”)
I think a lot of white people do not get that “a world where not everything is about white people” is not the same as “POC treating white people just as badly as white people often treat them”.
The exclusion is about classism, I think that’s pretty clearly what the poster is feeling, especially as she qualifies herself from the get-go as not being college educated, etc.
When I was an activist, it was middle class identified women shutting down other white women who were the new ‘other’ — poor white folks.
Poor whites are different culturally and no one wants to be one. Period.
So one stands up in a group and says, “Ok, all the poor folks over here.”
Poor black people can hang with black people and feel a common thread, likewise with any other ethnic or cultural group that is recognized by everyone.
Middle class whites can identify with the ‘movements’ that most often they’ve learned and studied in college - environmentalism, feminism, etc. Uneducated poor white women are outpaced and their concerns left in the dust.
So where’s the po’ white folk?
Hanging with the middle class J. Crew wearers, being ignored and feeling like a complete ass, because you know, that’s what they want you to know you are.
I know, I’ve been there and wouldn’t go there again for anything in the world.
Poor white people also buy into the class denial bullshit and thus continuously couch their feelings of exclusion across the board, looking for an identity in a world where they are invisible. The immediate response is to feel slighted, marginalized and worse, discarded.
Ironically, these people end up feeling jealous and angry at the people who demonstrate the most group unity and acceptance — since that is indeed what they yearn for more than anything.
And please do not construe my last comments as a trivialization of the very real issue of white people who don’t understand the importance of space for people of color only.
White folks tie much of their legitimacy as persons to class. Thus, any attempts to look at or deconstruct class issues usually meets some feirce resistance from those who hold have the most to lose.
Personally, I have oft wondered how if a white middle class person cannot see and eschew their class priviledge, then how on earth can they even begin to understand any other social disparities since almost all social inequality comes down to a construct of power?
Are we talking physical space or blog space? Because it blows my mind when people think bloggers “OWE” them . . . well, anything, but especially space on someone else’s personal blog.
I added my comments to Nio’s blog, trying, like Crys T, to explain the value in having space with my peeps.
>Poor whites are different culturally and no one wants to be one. Period.>
You know, there’s a local activist in the Welfare Rights Organization in the Twin Cities who does a pretty good rap on this issue. When you consider the kind of exploitation and disrespect that is involved in getting rich under capitalism, being poor looks pretty damn good.
The “white” feminist syndrome is usually referred to as “Miss Ann”
After reading some of the dialogue, I began to reflect on why I really enjoyed Harry Belafonte and John Travolta’s much despised movie “White Man’s Burden”. Perhaps it is time for a remake “White Woman’s Burden”. I think it could be a BLOCKBUSTER. It could show all of the BS that white priveledge puts on black women causing us to have stroke, diabetes, miscarriages, fibroids and down and out work-related stress/drama!! I think we could have a star-studded cast of beautiful black actresses portray this for the world to witness a “day in our life”! Wish I was a screenwriter or producer. What do you think?
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>I would’ve like to have gone to the conference blac(k) academic attended. But I can see by her post that I would have been vilified for caring…
attempts at mindreading kind of don’t tend to help much either.
do people ever think to like *ask* a person before making assumptions about what she would or wouldn’t do or say?
Ugh, Nio is completely irrational, it’s impossible to reason with her. I hope she’s a parody, because if she actually believed herself, it would be scary. She’s not even a feminist, either, she’s also going on about how feminists always have to talk about rape and they’d be sexist and exclusionary if they held female only sessions for rape survivors, it’s typical entitled bs. Shorter Nio: I am good and pure and virtuous and perfect, anyone who isn’t me is stupid and evil and racist and sexist and filled with hate. I am full of love and respect and I want to bring people together, which I show by declaring everyone a racist sexist and refusing to listen to anyone except to call them names because I hate name calling and I hate hate and demanding that the way to truth is by everyone doing exactly what I tell them to do because I know what’s best for everyone way more than they themselves do, they’re too full of hate. Why do you think I want to take over just because I’m going to tell you what to do and you’d better do it because I am The Truth, you hater!
Good god, some folks need to join the 21st century already. It seemed like in the 90’s there was a positive trend with the affinity group thing: where people formed safe spaces for themselves and then worked with other groups on shared goals. So a group of white women and a group of WOC might work together on a campaign while maintaining separate group identities. This was really great because nobody’s identity was erased and since everything was done by some sort of coalition, POC were automatically included in the leadership. There was still pointless exclusion (like multiracial people or trans people being told they weren’t “black enough” or “woman enough” to join), but it seemed like white men and white women were starting to be respectful of safe spaces and whatnot.
Now it’s like people are only progressive as far as their own cause. The comments on mainstream lefty blogs (Atrios, the Daily Kos) are full of sexism and colorblind racism. (White) people are forgetting or unlearning the value of affinity groups and coalitions. The current political conditions in the US are extremely discouraging.
(I did not notice a comment policy or any indication that this was a WOC-only space. I’m white, so please delete this comment and accept my apologies if it’s not appropriate for me to comment here.)
clarification:
i didn’t insist that nio was upper-middle class. what i meant is that her feminist ideas are.
also, since her blog states that she is off to law school, that changes her class status no matter what. i grew up in poverty, but my college degree and graduate degree has changed my class satus–even though i still only make less than 20,000 a year (for someone who wanted to know how much i make)
I’m pretty sure that I’m not going to be able to read most of the comments, but I thought I’d point you to our little discussion on White Woman’s Syndrome. Because, Exhibit A.
I mean, do I have zero sympathy for her frustration? I suppose I have a very little bit. But the whole “I can’t win! I’m taking my feminism and going home!” stance she’s taking is unfortunate and bigoted at best.
Hahaha… I just realized I made a similar “taking my ___ and going home” comment on your earlier post about the clueless white woman and her foolish/racist skin question. People had the same attitude there, and I responded in the same sarcastic manner. White people: we’re such one trick ponies.
By the way, I thought you might find this amusing– apparently a woman on Livejournal referenced my “stupid white people” comment in that post as evidence of “carefully cultivated [anti-white] hostility” among POC.
Yeah, the same comment in which I made it pretty clear I was white.
Apparently folk are not so much colorblind as blind.
Carefully cultivated hostility, indeed.
Dear Anonymous 5:08:01,
You said:
don’t want to speak for Nio, but as a frequent reader of her blog, I’ve seen her complain for months/years that she can’t find a feminist group which tackles issues of concern to her. Nio expresses concern with issues of poverty and class, issues which have affected her personally, and she’s not interested in “mini-skirts” and “giving head”. She’s complained about those things repeatedly, and I’m sure she felt that in Blac(k) ademic’s posts, she’d finally found somewhat of a kindred feminist spirit. Sure, she could start a “white’s only” group to discuss poverty and class issues, and she’d be the only member in her community. What fun for her :p
Why would the group have to comprise “whites only”? Just because people of color want their own safe-spaces doesn’t mean that they don’t interact with white people and participate in the movements.
It will be impossible for white people and people of color to come together if people of color have to compartmentalize parts of their identity in order to do the work. Which means, poor white people suffer from a different kind of poverty than poor people of color do. The same way that the causes for Asian poverty is different from black poverty, and the same with latino poverty. But, all of these groups can come together and talk about these issues outside of their communities if they choose.
It is the ridiculousness of people in this culture to jump to extreme polarities of what they means. She did not find a kindred spirit in Nubian, because Nubian’s spirit is comprised of more than simply class issues and poverty. They are comprised of race, gender, sexuality, class, education and if you can’t take all the histories and identities that we come with, then you shouldn’t be privvy to any part of us.
Also, she insulted the feminisms and womanisms of women/people of color which have done a hell of a lot more in our communities regardless of class than simply talking about race and class have.
Kate said:
why are we women still doing this to each other?
Because some women want to deny that we do not all live the same reality as they do, and they want to pretend and actively ignore that our realities are different than theirs.
It is because some women are hoping for sisterhood instead of a reality of what actually is, a very fractured and dysfunctional family at best, with one sister being more favored but thinking that she is the least.
I think it’s great that Nubian took her to task for for what she said. I am really tired of this idea that you can say whatever ridiculousness you want as long it is said tactfully and in the name of solidarity and civility. This idea that ignorance can just go unchecked. Or if you must check the ignorance it has to be in the nicest words possible.
It’s not us as sisters against the white man, and it never will be as long as people choose to actively ignore the reality and privilege of white people regardless of class, gender, and able-bodiedness.
Poor black people can hang with black people and feel a common thread, likewise with any other ethnic or cultural group that is recognized by everyone.
Oh really? Thanks for informing me because you know in all actuality I have seen it play out differently, and there have been many books written about black people and class (especially the middle class) that don’t really back up your statement… or if it does back it up, it is specifically related to the fact that a majority that comprises middle class growth is made up of blacks who were once poor. Which means that those who have been living in that existence longer may have the same hangups as you describe in whites.
Good work Nubian.
Maybe if non-POC’s realized that we don’t always talk about them when they’re not in the room, we’d be able to keep our safe spaces safe.
Then again, maybe not.
Thanks for speaking up for WOC. You’re taking so much heat that you don’t deserve just for exercising your right to speak your mind.
Didi
I am a white feminist and Nio does not speak for me. I understand that racism and sexism work together - not in isolation - and that there is little I can contribute to exploring that connection and analyzing the effects beyond being a good ally and supporting the efforts of women of color to network, strategize and support each other.
Personally, I believe the ideal feminist gathering would have the first day(s) set aside for caucuses such as women of color caucuses, gender identity caucuses, and, yes, a white caucus. The white caucus should take time to explore and discuss white privilege, dismantling racism and how to be an anti-racist ally. The other caucuses should be empowered to not only explore those concerns that are specific to them, but also to set guidelines and propose topics for wider discussion in the following days. That way the feminist gathering would begin to bridge some of these divides that are natural results of ignorance and the acquired racism and homophobia that are part of growing up in a racist patriarchy.
Of course, women of color need and have an absolute right to hold gatherings of their own — completely devoid of having to accomadate white privilege and ignorance. I just think the ideal would be to have women of color gatherings AND all-feminist gatherings that strive to be safe and supportive places for women of color and NO all-feminist gatherings that ignore the fact that women of color experience gender oppression differently than white women and sometimes seek different strategies and responses to combatting sexism, such as the revolutionary organizing being down by CARA in Seattle http://www.cara-seattle.org that is clearly reflective of the differential experience of women of color who not only experience sexual violence, but also the racist violence of the criminal justice system.
So, although I know you know that not all white women think like Nio, I just want to remind you anyway since there are an embarrassingly large number who clearly do judging from the awful comments of support for her on her site.
>Maybe if non-POC’s realized that we don’t always talk about them when they’re not in the room, we’d be able to keep our safe spaces safe…
i think there’s probably something to that.
part of all this is the old “fuck, i haven’t been invited to the party, they hate me, they’re probably all laughing at me right now…”
I LOVE YOU NUBIAN! STAY STRONG AND DON’T LET THEM SILENCE YOU. THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT. AS THE SAYING GOES ‘BLACK DON’T CRACK!’ (AND WE GOT YOUR BLACK BACK, SISTAH, SO COME ON BACK…WHEN YOU’RE FEELIN’ IT!!
MaxJulian
Can I include this post in the Erase Racism carnival?
–IP
Any European-American woman who doesn’t understand that there are times for her to butt the fuck out is a woman whose presence is the prime motivator for having her absent. No woman of color owes such a person any explanation. When she gets it, she won’t push any more. And then, paradoxically enough, she might finally find spaces with women of color that could include her. But not until.
Nubian, I’m sorry this creep-shit stuff happened to you, but what doesn’t kill you makes you strong. Gramsci wrote: “The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born.” Yet. But it will be. And all of us with it, hopefully.
Incidentally, I’m European-American. I try very hard not to be any more “White” than I can help. And I have zero-tolerance for White folks that posture through their lives trying to perpetuate their unrealistic attitudes about themselves and their position in society. They keep us stuck on so many levels and they make such a terrible lot of noise.
So now that your blog has forced you to stop self segregating your views from other black activists and other feminists you have become faced with the publics real opinion, public discourse removes the safety net of ivory tower activist philosophy, No longer are you able to keep your arguments to a select group they now reach the public at large.
I have spent very little time on your site but it doesn’t take long for racism against whites to come up in the comments.
Being angry with white people at large or feminists being angry at men at large is completely ineffectual not to mention a complete hypocritical reversal of ignorance.
You have to focus on the people that are actually racist and do cause problems. Inventing issues out of thin air might be a great way to beef up the blog but it causes problems and harms your credibility.
ON the surface in our culture racism against whites has become an acceptable thing to do. Don’t believe me? Well when we have a white man making millions of off humiliating mocking and denigrating black people on network tv like David Chappell or Eddie griffin does to whites then I guess we can be equal again.
The youth today have grown up with a new prejudice a prejudice ironically brought about by an attempt at unity.
The civil rights feminist and politically correct movements have a hard time admitting any victory. We casually make fun of white people for being white or men for being men, but we are not allowed to do the same to any other group because we have all learned that it is harmful, but to people of color and women only?
You have to realize that there is a large % of white people in this world with the same dislikes and the same feelings about our government that you have, I am one of them but when I read your site or feministings, it is clear from the posts and the comments that because of my skin color and the flesh between my legs you distrust or hate me.
Therefore I can’t help you, the power of the people has only served to be divided by modern feminism and modern black activism.
Like the more duke crap post, at feministing. We have three accused men and a multicultural team supporting them, but what happened is samhita labeled the men as rapists labeled them racist sexist and labeled the white members of the team racist while the women of color on the team were excluded in her scorn. She used the anger we all feel about rape to incite hatred against whites. This deserves an outcry from everyone and certainly white people but the white people myself included were merely labeled racists by you and by feministing for that out cry. Complete double standards and complete hypocrisy. Exposing two movements that are a complete waste of time if unity is the goal.
United we stand divided by feminists and black activists we are.
HUJO
Comments like Hujo’s are why I, for one, am no longer excited about blogging. Or, perhaps, I think I prefer to blog without a comments section. People can read and take away what they might, but the acerbic, condescending tone people adopt in comments sections is just unacceptable to me. It reminds of when I was young and tried to convince my brother’s racist skinhead friends of the error of their ways. It was good work, if ineffective, but each of us has only a finite amount of energy, and I have to invest mine in the directions that are wisest for me. Peace to you, whatever you decide, Nubian.
Because being silent and complacent is a good thing?
Aint this public for a reason?
I am only offering some advise.
If you have a political site and you simply cant handle people that have conflicting or opposing outlooks to your politics and points of view with out merely resorting to censorship, banning or labels of racism and insults directed at the dissenters person and not the argument, then perhaps a “safe space” ( sheltering yourself among like minded individuals that agree and support you while ignoring what the public really thinks) is the best idea after all.
A shame as there is a point to all this, I thought, a goal?
By listing to dissent you might find a way to make your voice more universal and effective. Criticizing someone’s politics does not necessarily mean you want to destroy those politics, if it weren’t for critics nothing would ever be improved.
If it sounds hokey so be it, attack my argument not me, using real examples, not your brother racist skin head friends that have nothing to do with anything.
Sure, dialogue can be powerful and meaningful, but when parties don’t treat each other with respect, I don’t see it as particularly useful to me anymore. When I was young I would argue with everyone–racists, sexists, homophobes–staying up all night trying to change their mind. And then one day I realized that mainly I was making myself tired and even hurting myself by rendering myself vulnerable to people who treated me badly. We all negotiate our boundaries and mine no longer require me to do that on my free time. The energy it drained took away from my research, writing, and the rest of my life. Some people thrive on that sort of atmosphere, but I don’t. In the end, we all decide where we do the most good, at least in my opinion.
sevres–
that’s my main issue: there is little respect for other people’s opinions. i just get tired of not getting the respect i deserve, since, i really feel that i offer it to others.
Referring to people who are “actually racist” as if that doesn’t include commenters who pretend to want a real dialogue, but clearly don’t, marks you as one of them, Hujo. As long as the “White” power structure is still in control of everything, there is no such thing as racism against “White” folks. Prejudice, maybe. Even rage, sure. But racism? Hardly. Racism is a form of oppression and people of color don’t yet have the power even to define their own lives, let alone anyone else’s.
And by the way, you aren’t distrusted because of your skin color or your dick (I’m assuming that’s what you meant by “the flesh between [your] legs–though how would we know that and why would we care?). You’re distrusted because of what you write. There can’t be unity where there’s no understanding and you’re not demonstrating any interest in understanding. You appear to be just interested in arguing, which makes your “advice” less than helpful.
I’m not attacking and I’m certainly not trying to convince you. It makes me no never mind what you think. But I wish you’d give Nubian a break. You’re making yourself look bad. In print. On the internet. Have you considered that?
Hmm. Probably not. He’s too busy having a pity party to notice that there are other people with opinions in the room. That and being the wise one(which apparently came with his skin color and that flesh between his legs) imparting wisdom to those he considers more ignorant on these issues than himself.
He doesn’t like the way this space is defined and the fact that he wasn’t given the right as a White man to shape its purpose. This makes him feel most uncomfortable here and it’s chafing because he’s unaccustomed to not being in the role of defining other people’s experiences, realities and spaces for them. If he can’t define the space and its rules, by his definition, it “excludes” him.
So he resorts to accusations of censorship and yes, racism to denounce it, all the while decrying that it is counterproductive to this goal of his that all human kind is supposed to share. Can’t we all get along, after you take my advice and do what I say? This space will be so much better with a White man’s touch.
Yeah, this ilk makes you wonder why you blog or allow people to comment on your postings, but they are always going to be out there zeroing in on blogs like these and others with their built in radar, wanting to shape them to fit their realities. I’ve struggled with this issue myself for months and being told by well-meaning community leaders that it’s my blog that’s the problem not those who dump on it. But it’s the visitors and their posting choices that are the problem.
This is an excellent blog, in my opinion. It would be a shame to not see it anymore.
No it is just that you label anyone that has a different opinion than nubian or yourselfs a racist.
Racist is not a word that should be used in place of troll.
Just saying noone is flawless and i feel the site is being critisized for these valid reasons.
Dont agree with black academic you are RACIST? Or is it just white people are all racists? Either way I can see why you have disenters.
Oh wait i guess this is just me being racist and you all being absolutly flawless perfect people. Riiiiight.
You feel that black people can never be racist, or that people should give you special treatment and respect your every word simply because you are a black woman?
If so I think sheltering your site is the way to go.
As we see a white man gives his two cents and you feel he is trying to take over!!!! LOL
Well here is a Bonus you chased one more “white therefore racist” away from your racist superiour site.
Hujo, I didn’t label you a racist for having a differing opinion. I wrote (as a European-American with a clue) that I think racism equals prejudice plus power and since “White” folks have a stranglehold on the power, they’re the only ones who can be racist.
What I did say about you, however, is that you are one of those commenters who pretends to want a discussion, but really doesn’t. Your “two cents” is actually rolls and rolls of coins put in a sock and used to beat someone up with it–while smirking yet. Makes your attitude incredibly apparent.
Thus, you write that you’re going away, but my guess is that you won’t really. Because you’re getting a lot of attention. Makes you feel powerful, I imagine, and many White men are really worrying about losing their power these days.
You still have it, I assure you, for the time being. But you should enjoy it while you can because your lack of willingness to grasp the reality of what the heavy-handedness of the White male power structure has perpetrated against women in general and women (and men) of color in particular is going to sink our collective ship if we let it. And you will fight to the death, it would appear, to have it sink rather than not be in the position of captain.
I, for one, would rather survive than be on top. If you don’t feel that way, then what could we possibly have to discuss? I’m sure you wouldn’t expect the rest of the human race to just bow quietly to White men just because they say so, would you? Really?
“Hujo, I didn’t label you a racist for having a differing opinion. I wrote (as a European-American with a clue) that I think racism equals prejudice plus power and since “White” folks have a stranglehold on the power, they’re the only ones who can be racist.”
So only the 2% of people with the power to greatly effect society are racist? Surely you can’t be implying that every elite member of society is racist or even white that would be ridiculous. So by your “logic” then the amount of racists in America would be 1% or less of only white men? Wow and you have a clue? Now let me ask you why it is that white ruled nations have the most multiculturalism, immigration, higher standards of living, women’s equality and religious tolerance? As you say only people with power can be racist and only whites have power so you must acknowledge that some or even most of the white folks in power have worked toward building a tolerant society these last 50 years and longer, as MUCH good social change has happened even with all those “racist” whites in power.
I would like to ask you what you think of Cynthia McKinney, a black women with power that while disobeying security procedures was rightfully stopped by a white cop (whose job was stopping people) , then she proceeds to physically assault him then SHE claims to be the victim of racism and sexism? What do you call that? I call it an act of racism, prejudice against a white men by a black woman in power. I also call it a glaring example of societies new double standards. (White male politico punching black female cop is a dead career/ Cynthia is a hero) Look I understand that in the ivory towers of academia cute little expressions like “Only those with power can be racist” can fly with enough BS to back it up, in the real world it’s just silly.
”What I did say about you, however, is that you are one of those commenters who pretends to want a discussion, but really doesn’t. Your “two cents” is actually rolls and rolls of coins put in a sock and used to beat someone up with it–while smirking yet. Makes your attitude incredibly apparent.”
Oh you mean kinda like you are doing in this post here and especially in the next paragraph.(I am back because you argued my post)
”Thus, you write that you’re going away, but my guess is that you won’t really. Because you’re getting a lot of attention. Makes you feel powerful, I imagine, and many White men are really worrying about losing their power these days.”
Ouch my brain hurts from all the hypocrisy, First um why should white men be worried about losing power if as you say they are the only ones with it…odd and FTR I have no white guilt or insecurities so you can stop with insults that expose your predictable ethnocentric prejudgments. I thought I was not here to discuss but to be a “insecure white racist” but now your psychic abilities are telling you I want a discussion but only to feed my giant white male ego? Hypocritical and racist of you.
”You still have it, I assure you, for the time being. But you should enjoy it while you can because your lack of willingness to grasp the reality of what the heavy-handedness of the White male power structure has perpetrated against women in general and women (and men) of color in particular is going to sink our collective ship if we let it. And you will fight to the death, it would appear, to have it sink rather than not be in the position of captain.”
….Yeah.. see I want to fight but all the feminists and black activists keep talking shit about straight white men like me, they say it is only those in power they speak negatively of when pressed, but they get down on “whites” in general, casually, till someone calls them on it, in my experience.
So believe me not, but I am fighting for exactly what you are talking about, thought lately I have been deciding sites like these are simply a waste of time due to the whole being blind to the obtrusive hypocrisy and double standards thing as mentioned above.
“I, for one, would rather survive than be on top. If you don’t feel that way, then what could we possibly have to discuss? I’m sure you wouldn’t expect the rest of the human race to just bow quietly to White men just because they say so, would you? Really?”
What the hell are you talking about? Very powerful and moving but do you mind giving examples or something of the sort to anchor your argument to reality????
….like I was saying white guys have flaws like everyone else but corruption, racism, rape, slavery, war, they are universal to the HUMAN condition not exclusive to the white race. I am white I have no power I have arguably less privilege than a white woman my own age, the thing you speak of; “power” it is not needed for a person to be racist/ethnocentric/prejudice “power” applies to such a minority of white men it is simply racist and most certainly exclusive and segregating to speak of these issues as “a white problem” it is an elite problem and it is a global one, it is not whitey or men, it is human corruption, like I said unity is what will solve that and if feminists and black activists continue to be intolerant of whites or men then they can only be part of the problem.
Simply equating the dissenters to “insecure racist white men” just makes the black and feminist movements look even more superior minded and out of touch with reality…if that was possible.
Told you you wouldn’t leave.
HAR HAR
If you were speaking of the current global climate, I mean you would have to be blind not to see that the UK US Israeli and Saudi Arabian elite are those benefiting. An elite % of global society made up of men and women. They are all of them every race and gender stealing from every race and gender under their CLASS so nooo I don’t think your “leaking ship/white man captain” analogy makes sense or that common white folk are immune to the oppression from this elite…if thats what you meant.
As you see I am open to discussion what do you want?
You’ve got me thinking…
http://redstapler23.blogspot.com/2006/07/that-men-at-blogher-thing-again.html
Sure, dialogue can be powerful and meaningful, but when parties don’t treat each other with respect, I don’t see it as particularly useful to me anymore. When I was young I would argue with everyone–racists, sexists, homophobes–staying up all night trying to change their mind. And then one day I realized that mainly I was making myself tired and even hurting myself by rendering myself vulnerable to people who treated me badly. We all negotiate our boundaries and mine no longer require me to do that on my free time. The energy it drained took away from my research, writing, and the rest of my life. Some people thrive on that sort of atmosphere, but I don’t. In the end, we all decide where we do the most good, at least in my opinion.
excellent post and a very hard lesson to learn. Just figured it out myself and it is a life changing lesson to learn. respect has to be at the foundation of all conversations, or they aren’t conversations anymore, they are attacks. just wished i’d learned this along time ago.
Absolutely agreed brownfemipower. So well stated. I came around these parts to see what Kortney was doing these days. Ironically, I see her “frustration” writing, but didn’t really care enough to check what folk had to say.
I assume if it hurt, then it was meant to be hurtful. But, I think you have to remember what you’re dealing with. Lots of these people who would maim and disrespect you - God forgive me are writing from a trailor. Now some of my best friends, people I’ve loved very much have lived in trailors so I hesitate to use that quip. But, I think you get my drift.
The reason you’re drawing such venom is because you are indeed unbelievably powerful. You write from down deep, and their position is Black women aren’t allowed to do that. You speak about a relationship to the past - which irks them because they never learned the history. Their schools have computers in every corner of the room Kortney, but there’s no authentic history there. What you hear emanating from particularly angry White males is also their struggling with not being able to rape us to shut us up.
Many of them are angry for not having the ability to have their way with us as their whorefathers did. So my sistah’ hold your head up nice and high so you can slide easily into that comfortable slot intended just for you. One thing you might do - as I have done - is set your space up so you can accept plenty of criticism which is healthy and proper, but disallow the meaness.
One gentleman who is the proprietor of one of the most proflific websites online called allowing such craziness akin to “creating a space for an absuser to slap you in the face.”
As far as other bloggers writings are concerned, if what they say stings enough - take what they write and research the subject matter and the history and scale the wall so well they’ll barely recognize the topic’s relationship with them. That way, you can use the opportunity to develop YOU rather than respond to them.
If you take it over their heads - I swear they won’t even know you were talkin’ about them.
Hit me up when you can.
Much respect.
Terry
www.terryhowcott.com
I’m pretty new to this blog but I find what you write and the dialogue within incredibly interesting and useful in my own education and formation of ideas.
It’s a shame the inspiration from the conference you attended didn’t withstand the barrage on your blog.
I’ll keep checking back though just in case.